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Post by James on Jan 28, 2009 6:42:13 GMT -5
Before this goes any further I would like to state that I am a supporter of the left wing, the Palestinian cause and the causes of those struggling against oppressors around the world. My issues are with the current actions of occupation and the manifesto's being issued by the groups who have taken select buildings around the UK. Please also note I am posting this because I believe in the idea of informed political debate. I am aware that the politics degree I am studying is not being taken at such a prestigious establishment as many of the universities who are being occupied (Cambs, Oxford, LSE, Leeds, Queen Mary etc) but I still believe it is worth something. For this writing I will use the example of Leeds Uni as it is my closest occupied university. As stated on the leedsunioccupation.blogspot.com the demands upon the university are as follows; -Open the books to show which companies that back the Israeli state the Uni is investing in and/or receiving funding from. -Disinvestment from said companies -To Release a statement condemning the Israeli state's attacks and blockade on Gaza -Surplus resources (computers, books etc) to be sent to students in Gaza -Scholarships for at least five Gazan students to study in Leeds No repercussion, legal or otherwise for activists Now I am going to identify issues I have with the points made in the manifesto. -Open the books to show which companies that back the Israeli state the Uni is investing in and/or receiving funding from.I am not going to pretend to be an economist. Maths is by now stretch of the imagination my strong point. What evidence is there of financial backing from pro-Israeli (or companies who work closely with the Israeli state) companies? This is not an argumentative point, simply a point of curiosity. If we are going for a true boycott of products and companies then maybe we should examine the idea that many products like grapes from the co-op supermarket chain are from Israeli as are many oranges in Sainsburies. -Disinvestment from said companiesQueen Mary uni has made a similar point about a Starbucks coffee outlet on the campus. As I stated in the above point I am not going to pretend to be an economist. Neither do I know the finances of each uni. It is because of this I will with caution make a point about the issue of funding in university system. It is unfortuantly the case that many of are educational establishments are under-funded (I speak as a met student, not a student of a prestigious university). Can we call for universities to reject funding which may play a serious part in keeping them afloat? Also at what point do we draw the line on the companies? Should we reject funding from companies who run shipping opperations (this is a weak example yes)? -To Release a statement condemning the Israeli state's attacks and blockade on GazaI have two major points with this statement. The first is one of apathy. We all sadly know that the Israeli state does not listen to other actors within the global political thearter. If Israeli will not listen to the UN (leaving debates surrounding the organisation aside) will it really be compelled to act by the actions of uni's the other side of the world. My second point is the lack of democracy that this demand entails. To put it simply how can we be sure that all students agree with the standpoint of taken by the occupiers? I university should be a place for all minds to come together and be educated. We should not make them a place where only the left wing can be free to express its views. -Surplus resources (computers, books etc) to be sent to students in Gaza -Scholarships for at least five Gazan students to study in Leeds
My issue with these two points are the same. I have supported both of these points on a much larger scale for a long time. I do not believe we should make the specific to simply Gaza residents. I have campienged for funding to buy bikes for children in Africa and have driven around my home county to collect old computers to be referbished and sent to those around the world who need them. I think this should be done on a larger scale. Why must we only argue this point in relation to Gaza and the occupied territories? On the matter of scholarships I again think we should be fighting to gain a better standard of living and education for people around the world. Do not simply argue this point for students of Gaza but for those around the world who seek knowledge. -No repercussion, legal or otherwise for activists
This for me although I can understand this point I am a great believe in the idea that for every action there is a re-action. I do not want to see anyone taken away or arrested but all who take part in occupations must be aware of the possible consequences. Yes I agree that political dissent on this level should not be made illegal but asking for no repercussions to me shows a lack of belief and support for what you are fighting for. If you truely believe in your cause then fight for it all the way in the face of other factors. That is all. If this list of points remains on this site I would like to thank the people who have set up the occupations.proboards.com for giving me a place to air my views and opinions. Free speech is the cornerstone of a truely liberated society.
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Post by citizenstevie on Jan 28, 2009 7:58:13 GMT -5
In response to you, I'd like to point out I'm not actually an occupier, so this is all subjective, but I'm going to try and give some idea (or the feeling I get, rather) on the topic. -Open the books to show which companies that back the Israeli state the Uni is investing in and/or receiving funding from.What evidence is there of financial backing from pro-Israeli (or companies who work closely with the Israeli state) companies? This is not an argumentative point, simply a point of curiosity. This hinges on the idea of fingers in pies, and that sort of thing, I imagine. Since we don't actually know (as the books are closed) I think some reassurance is in order that the University is staying true to it's 'ethical principles'. By opening the books to investigation, they allow the students to have a look not only for companies associated with the Israeli state, but also arms and pharmaceutical companies, amongst a host of other less favourable ones. For example, we have a Nestle boycott, but not a Coke boycott. I know they control a good slice of the industry, but they also shoot Union men in Columbia (Wiki it or something), as well as all the other associated dubious dealings of multinationals. A fair point, I suppose. There is no reliable way to gauge the ethical consensus of tens of thousands of students, I guess, but there is a belief that Universities should be ethical and impartial and not rely on funding from companies with less than favourable reputations, even if this leads to a detriment, which lets be honest, I doubt it would, since given the amount of money the University must deal with. Again, I suppose it depends on how big an investment they've made. In the case of Leeds Uni, the VLE Cost us £7 mil, IIRC, so they aren't exactly cash-strapped, given it replaced a similar system that had not been in use long. Furthermore, while not being a fan of governments in general, there is also a strong argument for the subsidizing of Universities, the abolition of tuition fees an all that jazz. On such grounds, you could argue there is no need for companies to invest in, and commercialize, education which should be freely available to all. Releasing a statement is a reassurance of the Universities ethical principles. Since they don't have a lot to lose, I imagine (mostly ignorantly), I can't see why it would be a major problem. Sure, Israel won't listen. The thing is the objection is noticed. I guess it's a bit like that poem (or whatever it is) about the Nazi's. You know, when they came for the Jews I said nothing. When they came for X, I said nothing, and when they came for Y I said nothing. When they came for me, there was no one left to say anything. It's about lines in the sand, I reckon, about what is and what isn't acceptable on a global stage (and non global, I guess). It's not just about Israel, it's about everything. And while it's impact is limited, it is an example to others (on both sides, to future objectors and those who may be objectionable), and a notation of wider unease at the way things are playing out. As to your second point, I think it's pretty reasonable. A student ballot would be ideal (well, not ideal, given the apathy and everything), but better than making assumptions. However, it must be made educatedly. There's a lot flying around about various groups' supporting Hamas, others being anti-Semitic and all the associated stuff. Personally, I'm not pro Hamas, and I'm not anti-Semitic, but if we look at a pure number crunch that regardless of the historical, cultural, economic (or whatever) reasons that this war happened, the citizens of Gaza suffered the most out of it. There are also other things, such as questionable use of questionable weaponry (Re: White Phosphorous in particular) against questionable targets in civilian areas. I suppose, like you state, it's based on the morality of the individual, and morality can be relative. It depends on how strongly you feel about it. I believe that a statement should be issued without getting into the weepy emotive side, like individual cases (and: Oh god, think of the children), although that plays a part, simply because over a thousand Gazan's were killed. That has to have some impact on how you judge the politicians who sanctioned the war. It simply was not a noble deed, but something that was done against international objections, and done rather badly (although some would argue indiscriminate killing was probably the goal anyway). I suppose it comes as far as this. The world is quite an unpleasant place, really, and there aren't causes (at least in my mind) of comparable magnitude of suffering, that don't warrant our attention and support. I don't know, there might be a deeper level of personal involvement from those involved. Rather, I think, is that the war is fresh in our minds. It's just happened, and people are suffering needlessly and immediately right now. Not that their plight merits attention over say, the swollen bellies of starving Africans, but things are done to help them. At the moment, as far as I can tell, there are blockades against Gaza which require our attention. Furthermore, Gaza is quite advanced (said without wanting to get into a whole cultural superiority thing). Places like Dawfur are awful, and something must be done. But computers, chemistry equipment and scholarships don't solve a humanitarian crisis, whilst they could be put to good use improving the infrastructure of a nation just bombed. I guess all of that could be summarized in a big *Shrug*, but I gave it a shot. And that is why they're still there. Now, someone aggravated me, I confess, by equating getting arrested to having balls. There is no need for stupidity here. Why not throw that demand in? The occupiers have obviously decided they are ready to face the repercussions before they went in, because this is not a guaranteed success. Some have had dealings with law enforcement before, I imagine, as these trends kind of usually end up like that. However, there is no particular harm in campaigning to get away free. If they do it, more power to them, although it shouldn't be equated with a form of cowardice or naivety, since they've already more than proved their willingness to deal with whatever happens by stepping out to occupy it in the first place. Cheers
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Post by James on Jan 28, 2009 9:28:19 GMT -5
I have spent the afternoon with the people at the Leeds occupation and all my questions were answered well. Thanks for the time and answers. Best of luck to all in the UK
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Post by stephen hoffman on Jan 29, 2009 8:50:37 GMT -5
Technically you shouldn't be typing on your computer , the pentium chip in all computers and laptops is after all made from those d**n israelies. James maybe israel was OTT but would you stop and look at how hamas has fired rockets constantly into israel , is anti semitic , uses children , hides in civilian areas and in the past has carried out suicide bombings.
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Post by citizenstevie on Jan 29, 2009 9:51:44 GMT -5
I don't really have anything against you, Hoffman, but you seem to be labouring under the idea that the occupation is pro-Hamas. Especially on the basis of one banner, or some assumption that condemning the actions of the Israeli state = supporting the actions of Hamas.
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Post by stephen hoffman on Jan 29, 2009 16:39:50 GMT -5
I personally support israel and it is my freedom to do so .
i am also a zionist which doesn't make me by the way the devil incarnate i do believe in the two state solution but can't see it happening until hamas abandon's it's genocidal goals.
also you haven't come out condemning hamas.
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Post by Shafiq on Jan 29, 2009 17:06:57 GMT -5
Zionism is evil because it calls for an ethnically pure Jewish homeland. Personally I support a one-state solution where Jews and Palestinians live together and each group controls 50% of the legislature.
You obviously didn't read my point about Hamas - it has signed up to the 2002 Arab peace initiative and has made loud hints that it is willing to negotiate a peace deal for the past few years, or is that just too hard for you to accept? Maybe its an even more of an inconvenient truth that Mossad actually funded and supported Hamas in its early years, to make a challenger to the authority of the PLO? You reap what you sow.
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Post by stephen hoffman on Jan 29, 2009 23:12:26 GMT -5
Hamas has never ever shown any signs of wanting peace israel is in a position where they are told to talk to a group with someone who wants to kill them would you talk with a killer
actually all zionism calls for is jewish self determination it also calls for equal treatment of arabs hence hwy the israeli arab standard of living is so much higher than in adjacent arab countries.
im not evil by wanting to have jewish self determination and it doesn't call for some pure jewish race contrary to popular we're not nazis and unlike the palestinian or iraqi nationalists -ie Haj Amin Al Husseini - we didn't collaborate with the nazis we fought against them .
sure there are extremists in zionism but they have always been a minority . there are extremists in all religions and political views - but there not in the mainstream.
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Post by Shafiq on Jan 30, 2009 6:07:42 GMT -5
Again, a simple google search shows that your accusation is a baseless lie: www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2008-04/22/content_6635136.htm and www.arabnews.com/?y=2008&page=4&article=108523&d=3§ion=0. Seeing as Israel or any Western Country for that matter, has never talked to Hamas, you wouldn't know. Sir Jeremy Greenstock, former British Ambassador to the UN, has talked to Hamas and they have repeatedly told him they are willing to accept a two-state solution. The Zionism I know told potential Jewish settlers in the 19th century that the Holy Land had no current inhabitants. Have you even read the writings of the original 19th century Zionists? And your equal treatment of Arabs: That's why you decided to ban Arab-only parties, and they are limited from buying 95% of the land in Israel. Here's a few more links for you: www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3638934/Second-class-citizens-in-their-own-country.html - This is generally a right-wing, pro-Israeli newspaper and www.economist.com/surveys/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10909949. Its funny how you like to compare yourself with you dictatorship neighbours - they aren't any better, and I have long called for them to become democracies, but as long as Israel continues to occupy and oppress the Palestinian people, normal Arabs see their own problems as less important than the problems of Palestinians. Jewish self-determination would not have been feasible in 1948 because of how many Jewish people actually lived in Israel at the time and how spread out they were. Now that the demographics have changed, I am willing, and so are the vast majority of Palestinians, and an increasing number of Hamas members (especially those at the top) are willing to accept an Israeli state - shame you're not willing to do the same by signing up to the Arab peace deal. And your reference to the Nazis - obviously you fought them, they were trying to kill you. From the prominent Arabs, only Haj Amin Al Husseini knew about and supported the Jewish extermination that was taking place in the concentration camps - If America didn't really know what was happening, how were Arabs meant to know? You forget the number of Arabs (including many Palestinians) that protected their Jewish neighbours from the Nazis. To your last sentence, that is the same with the Palestinians.
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Post by stephen hoffman on Jan 30, 2009 9:47:13 GMT -5
the arab peace deal calls for the palestinian right of return if this happened there would be no israeli state- many of the refugees although not all left because they were instructed by arab governments to leave whilst deir yassin was a terrible stain it was condemned by israel's leader ben gurion and used by propaganda by the arab nations to encourag palestinians to flee and come back when the war was won they lost. im sure the arab states wouldn't open up with arms the 750,000 jewish refugees they kicked out of arab states With all due respect Jeremy Greenstock does not know what he is talking about. -here is an article which illustrates it . www.hurryupharry.org/2009/01/17/sir-jeremy-greenstock-ambassador-for-hamas/- this also shows that you and many of the others involved in the occupation are falling for the same trick as Jeremy Greenstock did namely that hamas is some fluffy weak group . in reality this is different - all you have to do is read their charter-it's there manifesto - and you know as far as i know unlike hamas the jews aren't controlling the world. Here's some quote from the hamas charter which shows them for the anti semites they really are.http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2008/05/the-protocols-o.html. www.acpr.org.il/resources/hamascharter.htmlusing google search - with all due respect you can find anything on google search a lot of it rubbish - so to say im lieing is quite thankly preposterous. As was said in my international politics seminar in relation to google there are no right and wrong just differing opinions with facts - so is the same with google. also why didn't arafat accept camp david - a extremely fair peace deal. The number of jews living in israel evne in the 1920s was quite high , definitely higher enough for a jewish state and the land was bought fairly off ottoman felakhin -
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Post by stephen hoffman on Jan 30, 2009 9:51:44 GMT -5
Shafiq the israeli arab parties can now take part in the elections the supreme court has ruled against the ban - thus your out of date on that. What is true is that a loud minority including quite a few israeli arab parliamentarian have called for support for hamas - this is not acceptable just as in the UK islamic extremism is not acceptable.
the truth is in the 19th century hardly anyone was living in what is now israel and palestine -mark twain's book for example documents this - it had been laid to waste by the ottoman empire -many jews bought the land off ottoman felakhin -absentee landowners for vastly inflated prices - for example telaviv was built out of sand dunes.
there has always been a jewish population in what is now israel-in places like haifa and jerusalem- admittedly not a lot but also the jews didn't just come from europe to israel they came from arab lands and african nations also.
Arab news-hardly non biased as the name itself suggests
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Post by Shafiq on Jan 30, 2009 10:37:23 GMT -5
The Arab peace deal does NOT call for the Palestinian Right to Return (even though it is a UN Resolution). It says that the decision will be made in the future when there are stable Israeli and Palestinian governments.
For your rebuttal of Jeremy Greenstock and Jimmy Carter, you link a blog, and an extremely pro-Israeli blog. The Hamas charter is not their manifesto - it was written by a Cleric for goodness sake!
When you make a Google Search, the results are newspapers - the point I was trying to make is that there is evidence all over the web showing that many non-militant Palestinians have been kidnapped, which you denied. And I've told you why Arafat did not accept the peace deal, 'FAIR' is the last word I'd use to describe it.
The number of Jews living in Palestine was about 11% of the total population, not enough to form your own country - I never denied that there wasn't a Jewish population there. The land that the Jewish held in 1948 had all been lawfully bought, but in 1948 the vast majority of land was Palestinian owned including 95% of the arable land. From the Jewish migrants to Israel, some were from Africa and Arab countries, but so what, they were not from Israel is the point I'm trying to make.
And contrary to your baseless lie, the population of Palestine grew in the 19th century from 275,000 to 532,000 - not exactly hardly anyone living.
And the Arab-News link will probably be biased, I know - BUT, the facts still don't change, it signed a document in 2006 calling for a Palestinian state based on 1967 borders.
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Post by stephen hoffman on Feb 7, 2009 6:38:13 GMT -5
Hamas is an islamist organisation who was run and founded by extremist clerics -therefore the charter does represent hamas they haven't rebuked it . There charter is like a political manifesto it's what they stand for - it's nice though you've shown yourself to support an organisation which is anti semitic -and you wonder why anti semitism is on the rise.
your figures are totally wrong and the un partition plan showed this -stop ignoring reality.
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Post by cheap UGGs on Sept 2, 2011 0:21:19 GMT -5
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