steve
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Post by steve on Jan 26, 2009 18:42:35 GMT -5
I am not Israeli, I am not Palestinian. I understand why the occupation is in progress. I understand that Israel's use of force is despicable. However I do ask a few questions and would appreciate some answers.
What does the occupation hope to achieve by getting Leeds University to release a statement condemning Israel? Do they expect Gordon Brown to suddenly change decades of British policy or for America to turn against its massive Jewish citizenry?
Does the occupation plan to condemn rocket attacks from Palestine and Lebanon fired at domestic targets in Israel? Especially after the ceasefire was agreed, proof of several subsequent rocket attacks on Israel was apparent.
The demand for Gazan students to be guaranteed scholarship to Leeds University - why? Because their nation is oppressed? Why not offer the same opportunities to Sudanese, Iraqi, Afghan, Burmese, Chinese, Kenyan, Zimbabwean,Haitian, Georgian, Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Indonesian students who have had their lives ruined by wars and conflict that the British government and Leeds University have failed to condemn?
What is hoped to be achieved by expelling the Israeli ambassador? Perhaps the aim is to end any potential chances for discourse and potential humanitarian aid deals and peace talks?
Why, if only 30 people are part of the occupation, is this group acting as if it speaks as the mouth piece of the student body? Why do the actions of only a few dictate how the university should act? Surely the group should be protesting vigorously for the opportunity for a referendum over the matter?
Should Leeds University deny funding from any company that has ties with any country accused of human rights violations? Surely the unions, bars, shops shelves' would be empty. The Union would cease to exist. University funding would evaporate. The university would cease to function. Is this the goal?
No repercussions for activists for breaking the law? Surely activists should be prepared to accept the consequences of their actions, even if they believe they are acting in the benefit of the University.
Why, if 'people are welcome to enter Botany House' are classes in Botany House being moved to a building with far less disabled access at a tremendous inconvenience for many students who can access only certain buildings on campus, tremendously disrupting an already expensive education?
Some answers would be appreciated.
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Post by Shafiq on Jan 27, 2009 15:49:14 GMT -5
What does the occupation hope to achieve by getting Leeds University to release a statement condemning Israel? Do they expect Gordon Brown to suddenly change decades of British policy or for America to turn against its massive Jewish citizenry?
By getting Leeds University to condemn Israel, other universities in Britain will hopefully follow suit (with some prodding). Israelis are very self-concious, and we hope that these condemnations will wake them up to the abuses that their government and army is committing. The occupations have already made news in Israel - so far, the reaction has been 'silly students, don't they have anything better to do?'. Outrage from Universities themselves (who generally know what they are talking about) will change that reaction and will force them to do something about what is happening in Palestine.
Does the occupation plan to condemn rocket attacks from Palestine and Lebanon fired at domestic targets in Israel? Especially after the ceasefire was agreed, proof of several subsequent rocket attacks on Israel was apparent.
Yes, the occupation has, as far as I know, and the LUU recently passed a motion condemning rocket attacks into Southern Israel. However, this recent conflict was entirely as a result of Israeli aggression:
During the truce period (from June 19th when it was signed to Nov 4th), there were around 15 rocket attacks. None of these were fired by Hamas (a fact verified by the Israeli spokesman Mark Regev), rather they were fired by other militant groups such as Islamic Jihad (who were not part of the ceasefire). Nevertheless, Hamas made an attempt to stop even their rocket attacks and were very successful (compare the rocket attacks 100 + in May, 1 in September and October). This is more successful than the IDF or Fatah has ever managed. Still, Israel decided to enforced the siege of Gaza (ending the siege was part of the truce) - by siege, I mean closing all borders, including the Egyptian border, closing its airspace and sea access, leading to Gazans being forced to eat bread made from Animal feed.
This truce was completely broken on November 4th (the eve of Obama's election- No surprise there) when the IDF bombed Gaza killing 6 Hamas members. In return, Hamas resumed firing rockets. Even after all this, Hamas offered a renewal of the truce in December, which was refused by Israel.
The demand for Gazan students to be guaranteed scholarship to Leeds University - why? Because their nation is oppressed? Why not offer the same opportunities to Sudanese, Iraqi, Afghan, Burmese, Chinese, Kenyan, Zimbabwean,Haitian, Georgian, Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Indonesian students who have had their lives ruined by wars and conflict that the British government and Leeds University have failed to condemn?
The specific attack on the only university in Gaza, which has denied Gazans the right to an education, is why there has been this specific demand. In addition, many Gazans with places at Foreign Universities have been refused exit from Gaza by the IDF, which is unacceptable.
What is hoped to be achieved by expelling the Israeli ambassador? Perhaps the aim is to end any potential chances for discourse and potential humanitarian aid deals and peace talks?
I'm not sure about this one, but I would assume that it is to show to the Israelis that their actions are unacceptable. As I've mentioned before, Israelis are very self-concious and such a move would have a profound impact on what they do in the future.
Why, if only 30 people are part of the occupation, is this group acting as if it speaks as the mouth piece of the student body? Why do the actions of only a few dictate how the university should act? Surely the group should be protesting vigorously for the opportunity for a referendum over the matter?
These demands would not be met unless there is considerable support for it. Protesting for a referendum adds an unnecessary step and it would be much quicker and more useful for the occupiers to prove that they have support from the general student population, which is what they are currently doing. The occupation is highlighting the issue so normal students can come and find out more - its much more effective than setting up a stall.
Should Leeds University deny funding from any company that has ties with any country accused of human rights violations? Surely the unions, bars, shops shelves' would be empty. The Union would cease to exist. University funding would evaporate. The university would cease to function. Is this the goal?
Leeds University should deny funding from any company whose activities directly aid human rights abuses. For example, one of the companies mentioned was BAE Systems who sell weapons to Israel, weapons that are ultimately used to bomb Palestinian homes and Universities. When Gazans look up and see a British Flag on the F-16 that just destroyed their homes, who, apart from Israel, are they going to blame? In addition, companies such as Aldi, are known to have donated their profits to the Israeli war effort - something the University should not be involved with.
No repercussions for activists for breaking the law? Surely activists should be prepared to accept the consequences of their actions, even if they believe they are acting in the benefit of the University.
Why, if 'people are welcome to enter Botany House' are classes in Botany House being moved to a building with far less disabled access at a tremendous inconvenience for many students who can access only certain buildings on campus, tremendously disrupting an already expensive education?
The occupiers have kept the door open for classes to be held (it would be stupid for them to deny the right of Leeds students' to get an education) and many PHD students regularly come in and out when they need to get to their offices. This has been the same for all the University occupations. It is through no fault of the occupiers, that the University has decided to re-schedule the classes, which was not necessary at all.
Some answers would be appreciated.
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Post by stephen hoffman on Jan 29, 2009 8:51:56 GMT -5
Shafiq this war was started by hamas when they kidnapped Gilad Shalit.
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Post by citizenstevie on Jan 29, 2009 9:47:09 GMT -5
Are you saying the war started in 2006, or the deeper context leading up to the present conflict started in 2006? Because in both cases, I fear you are wrong. Gilad Shalit is an unfortunate victim of something that's a lot bigger than he is.
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Post by stephen hoffman on Jan 29, 2009 16:41:32 GMT -5
this latest round did . it showed how hamas hadn't changed and wasn't prepared for peace- in relation to gilad shalit.
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Post by Shafiq on Jan 29, 2009 16:56:31 GMT -5
Two replies to Steven:
1) The siege of Gaza came before the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit
2) You've forgotten that 7,000 Palestinians and Lebanese have been kidnapped by the IDF from their respective lands (only about 15% are actually militants). Half have not had trials and the other half have had show trials that would have given Stalin a run for his money.
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Post by stephen hoffman on Jan 29, 2009 23:05:21 GMT -5
actually it didn't israel pulled out of gaza giving the palestinians something to do with gaza -what's it turned into - a failed terrorist state with hamas in charge - this is frustating for people like me who believe in the two state solution -as Abba Eban said the palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity - 1947 israel accepts partition arab states + nazi lover and then head of Palestinians HaJ Amin Al Husseini doesn't 1967 - israel is prepared to give up west bank and gaza- before arab league makes the famous three nos - no to peace with israel, no to recognition of israel no to economic relations with israel
or 2000 a deal which even Prince Bander of Saudi Arabia said arafat should have accepted arafat doesn't accept it - instead turning to terrorism .
2005 israel pulls out of gaza - they say to the palestinians do you want to keep the greenhouses to make something out of gaza- nope we'll destroy them - then hamas once elected tries to kill all members of fatah whilst launching rockets to israel and not abandoning it's voice on calling for the destruction of the state of israel and it's worlwide hatred for all jews- ie they still believe the protocols of the elders of zion are real.
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Post by stephen hoffman on Jan 29, 2009 23:08:21 GMT -5
oh im sorry israel is a democratic state something the soviet union as for the kidnappings im sorry that's something hamas does . the only people israel has put on trial our terrorists or collaborists of terrorists.
if israel did anything less they would be condemned by one of the most independent courts in the world the israeli supreme court-which in the past has constantly ruled against israeli governments.
You care about the palestinians right , why not condemn jordan for 60 years there has been a palestinian majority in Jordan - yet the Hashemites still rule Jordan despite being a minority and take away loads of rights from the palestinian majority.
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Post by Shafiq on Jan 30, 2009 5:10:47 GMT -5
It didn't what: kidnap the Palestinians and Lebanese or lay siege to Gaza? A simple google search led to this ccun.org/News/2007/July/3%20n/Israeli%20Kidnapping%20of%20Palestinians,%20July%203,%202007.htm and this www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/27/AR2006082700768.htmlHamas, in their 2006 election manifesto, did not adopt the charter that you love to quote and they conceded that they would be willing to negotiate with Israel. It won the election on a platform of anti-Corruption and Social Welfare, a result, which Israel, the EU and the US refused to accept for no real reason. And you did not ask the Palestinians whether they wanted to keep the Greenhouses or the houses or the infrastructure in the settlements - you destroyed everything wilfully. If you want to go back to 1947, there shouldn't have been a separate Israeli state in the first place - it made up a majority in only one city, Haifa and the creation of the state went against all principles of self-determination for the Palestinians. As for the 2000 Camp David accords, no-Palestinian, would ever accept a peace deal without getting East Jerusalem as its capital. The Camp David accords also gave 5% of the most arable land in the West Bank to Israel with the Palestinians getting nothing in return. There was no real peace deal for Arafat to accept. As for the kidnappings, Israel is the only democratic country to have legalised kidnappings - If they are all terrorists, why haven't all of them had court hearings? And the ones who have, why were they tried in a closed military tribunal, instead of an open court? I do condemn Jordan, I want it to open up a become a real democracy, as to the vast majority of Jordanians. However, the Hashemites don't try to systematically kill of its Palestinian population. |
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Post by stephen hoffman on Feb 7, 2009 6:31:24 GMT -5
in lebanon they kidnapped terrorists not civilians good .
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Post by stephen hoffman on Feb 7, 2009 6:35:45 GMT -5
Keep ignoring reality shafiq 3 points on you are wrong
firstly israel was asked to destroy the greenhouses by the palestinian leadership they didn't want to
secondly tel aviv, netanya , west jerusalem , safad , rishon lezion, shoham etc etc i can go on and on - all had jewish majorities
as for east jerusalem barak did offer east jerusalem again your ignoring facts and as for the west bank it is not feasible now with the size of say a settlement like gush etzion that it will be left therefore israel to compensate the loss fo 5% of the land was going to swap 5% of israeli territory to the newly formed palestinian state- prince bandar of saudi arabia said the palestinians should have accepted this good deal
The Palestinians could have had self determination if in 1947 at the un they had accepted the two state solution -they didn't. what about jewish self determination are we not allowed , is 1 simple jewish state not allowed in the world.
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